Liberty Institute

Mike Church Answers the Mark Levin Challenge on Rand Paul

todayAugust 18, 2014 7 22

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See and listen to the Virginia, Constitution Ratifying Convention in the Spirit of '76
See and listen to the Virginia, Constitution Ratifying Convention in the Spirit of ’76

Dearest Mark Levin,

Note: Mr. levin’s original comments are in italics. (This story was originally published on 25 August, 2011)

In the spirit of the day let us return, a priori, to the genesis of this text: Jeffrey Lord’s piece on Ron Paul at TAS. There is ample discussion of Lord’s inaccuracies and downright fallacies and distortions here.

I will assume these dont placate your fertile imagination of what terrible thoughts I must have withheld from Woods, Gutzman and the Sirius/XM audience so let us proceed to the rest of your accusations against my statements. Citizens, please read Mr. Levins response to my original post here.

Mr. Levin basically makes most of my points for me in this post but for arguments sake I will address his challenge.

Oh wow, Mike Church knows about a few of the founders, the order in which the states ratified the Constitution, a few of the Supreme Court justices, particularly Marshall, who expanded judicial review. Wow, aren’t we all impressed? That’s, what, like 8th grade stuff?

Its even worse than that Mr. Levin, I have actually read the ratification debates and related writings of the time from VA, PA and North Carolina, have you? It is noteworthy that you cite Marshall here, can you recall what the future jurist in McCulloch vs Maryland told the VA convention about this very issue? (judicial review e.g. Marbury vs Madison)

Church writes, barely, that I prefer what SCOTUS has done to the Constitution. Is the man literate?

If I werent literate why would a literate person try and communicate using literate tools like Facebook, this is what makes one Great? Why not send a smoke signal and hope I could read it with my Southern roots secession skills?

I wrote an entire book on the subject, Men in Black, with this sub-title — ready Mike? — How the Supreme Court is Destroying America. Oh my, so well informed. Get it Mike? I need no lectures from you, nor does anyone else, about the courts and what they have done to this country.

James Madison by Kevin Gutzman book
Order James Madison & Making America -Autographed by author Kevin Gutzman

Yes, I updated my amazon preferences list, changed my political opinion from classical liberal to neocon and now Men in Black appears, magic! If you care so deeply about the subject then why spare justice Scalia whose opinions have done more damage to the rights of the citizens residing in their sovereign states to govern themselves and pass their own laws just as Federalists claimed they would have near universal right to? (Madison explains this in Federalist 44) Ever read the Gonzales vs Raich case? Do you really believe that the Framers intended an unknown and yet to be constituted tribunal to decide whether a citizen of California could use pain medication prescribed by her physician under the laws of CA? Really?

And Mike, like your buddy the Southern Avenger, you say not one word about all the sleazy advisers and senior people around Paul, not one. Why is that, Mike? Why don’t you answer what was raised by Lord, by me, and by others? Is this a reading comprehension problem, again?

If you had a satellite radio and desired to listen to it the morning of 24 August, tune to the minor league channel your show is on, Patriot 125, you may have HEARD me say that most of Lords piece is historical revision and just flat out incorrect save for the part where Lords pointing out that Rothbard was no conservative and critical of Reagan. What other sleaze are you referring to? Lew Rockwell? I have been hosted at Lews Mises Institute for a Scholars Conference (we missed you!) found he and his staff to be charming professionals and yes, very anti-state. So what? Does being a yes man for the trampling of civil liberties in the name of national defense make you a sleaze? I wager you that Ben Franklin, Patrick Henry and yes Jimmy Madison -remember him, he vigorously opposed the Alien & Sedition Acts, so vigorously that he helped Thomas Jefferson in the cause, writing what is known as the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions which prompted the revolution of 1798 in the VA Assembly, ended Adams Presidency and killed off the political future of the Federalists Party. Was Madison a sleaze? What of the man picked by Jefferson to present the Resolution in VA, John Taylor of Caroline. Author of the definitive book on the Constitution from the Founding era ________________ (I left that blank so you can dazzle your sizable audience with original understanding!) Finally, I OFTEN disagree, publicly with Mr. Rockwell and some of the things posted on his websites, but do not believe that makes him a sleaze, it makes him opinionated, which if one disagrees with certain talk-show hosts, makes them very dangerous and sleazy indeed.

And I guess you are debating yourself, much like a homeless person with your comments about state sovereignty. No argument from me about state sovereignty, it’s just that I believe the Civil War settled the issue of secession and you do not. Right Mike? Does Paul agree with me or you? You believe the states can and should secede, right Mike? Is that not why you, Hunter, and the others hate Lincoln? That’s the main reason, right Mike? The wrong side won the Civil War, right?

Order your "Secede or Die" T-shirts while supplies last
Mike Church’s famous “America, Secede or Die” engravement art, custom redrawn from Ben Franklin’s “Join or Die” engravement of 1857. Order yours today in sizes md-4XXXXL.

Mr. Levin, The War of Northern Aggression settled nothing about secession. A military victory does not inviolate the God-Given right of free men to determine their own form of government, or does it Mr. Levin? I do believe that the greatest statement of secession and its natural right is still legal and binding….yes I do, Sir. It is contained in what began on 15 May, 1776 as the Resolution of the VA Assembly then when transmitted to the Continental Congress was known as The Lee Resolution to wit: Resolved, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States, that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved. Sounds like a statement of secession from the mighty pen of the Great Uncle to Robert E. Lee, was Lee wrong? What about Thomas Jefferson, was he wrong too? Jefferson expounded upon this statement and 56 men signed their lives and fortunes to it: and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. Want more Jefferson on secession?

How about we pick up his inaugural address and read from it?

If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.

What of the famous Lord Acton who wrote the I saw in State Rights the only availing check upon the absolutism of the sovereign will, and secession filled me with hope, not as the destruction but as the redemption of Democracy. …I believed that the example of that great Reform would have blessed all the races of mankind by establishing true freedom purged of the native dangers and disorders of Republics. Therefore I deemed that you were fighting the battles of our liberty, our progress, and our civilization; and I mourn for the stake which was lost at Richmond more deeply than I rejoice over that which was saved at Waterloo. I believe Lincoln was wrong, yes I do Sir, as for the side that won, is the death of 635,000 Americans worthy of Christian men claiming victory? I think not. (more on this in our AAA league radio debate later folks!!!)*more on this below

You write like you talk, as if you had a lot to drink. Do you really like the Constitution, Mike? I notice you don’t quote Madison or Wilson much. Not that they were prefect, as they were not. John Adams? I actually think Mason, Sam Adams, among several others, made some strong arguments against ratification. As did Yates and other Anti-Federalists. But in the end, even Jefferson threw his support behind the Constitution (although he obviously wasn’t at the Convention), as did Franklin and most of the others. Should we go down the entire list, Mike? That way you can prove, what, that you know who did and did not sign the Constitution?

Actually 3 men walked out of Philadelphia on 17 September, 1787 and refused their signature, you, Sir, Rabbi to this student seem to believe I must know their names! Elbridge Gerry, Edmund Randolph (then Governor of VA) and the wisest man of his generation George Mason. James Wilson, your current founder of choice, an emigrant from Scotland, educated at Edinburgh was a great man. Perhaps if you had listened to or watched either of my films The Road to Independence, The Fame of Our Fathers and The Spirit of 76 you would know the high esteem I hold Mr. Wilson in as I chronicle that it was his lobbying of John Dickinson and the Pennsylvania delegation that prompted Dickinson to leave Independence Hall on the morning of 2 July, 1776 allowing PA to vote AYE on the Lee Resolution. I can say the same for James Madison but whats the point, what are you asking of me to do, quote them? What does this have to do with Ron Paul taking his oath to defend the Constitution literally and abiding by it or my defense of same!? Please enlighten us as to the Founders cited heres opinion of their works (Constitution and Declaration). A good start for your research on Madison is in those ratification debates listed above. More on this in Mr. levin and my thrill packed AA radio debates!)

The Bill of Rights was, of course, crucial to reaching ratification, and Madison and the Federalists had to agree to it (12 amendments at first), as they were facing defeat from the states without it, even facing early resistance in Massachusetts. Right Mike?

See the Constitution being drafted and ratified in Mike Church's "Spirit of '76"
Order the Spirit of ’76 on DVD from Founders Depot and see James Madison in action writing the Constitution

*The VA Ratification Instrument actually carries a legal precedent still in effect today that if Amendments arent forthcoming or if any new grant of power or “consolidation” arises that VA can resume its former state of existence (free of membership in the union). Again, Mr. Levin I dont see a question here, what I see is the Rabbi again trying to goad the pupil into filling in gaps in his own knowledge. In my movie, I actually cover the intrigue that caused letters from the Republican governor of New York-George Clinton-to the opponents of ratification, (herein derisively referred to as anti-federalists but more affectionately known in THEIR time as Republicans) had these letters not been either seized or sabotaged there is every reason to believe that VA would never had ratified, pending the action of the NY Legislature on Amendments. Again, what does this question prove about Ron Paul or in this missive, the Rabbis claim that I am some sort of Constitutional illiterate?

But here’s the thing, Mike, I am told you block comments on your facebook page, unless you are added first as a friend. You should change that, Mike. But here’s the real challenge, as you and the other light-weights and fools keep calling people out to debate — I am directly challenging you to disassociate yourself from the sleazy, race-baiting, anti-Semitic attacks and tactics from Paul’s inner circle. Can you do that Mike? Or will you continue to pretend they’ve never been raised. Are you part of that circle, Mike? And I am asking you if you agree with the attacks on Lew Rockwell’s site over the years against Reagan, Scalia, Friedman, Buckley, and Limbaugh. Are these questions too difficult for you, or are you a coward.

I have answered the charge of Mr. Rockwells association above and I decline to disassociate with the Founder of the Mises Institute. Do you recall this man of Jewish heritage who survived the Nazis along with Hayek and lived to write a lifetime of scholarship dedicated to preventing the holocaust from ever happening again (yes, he was an economics professor). Do you know who is the executor of the Mises estate? I do and no, Sir, I will not disassociate myself from him.

I named a child after Ronald Reagan, Sir, and I do not claim to defend all of Reagans politics or policies, does that mean he is beyond reproach. I defend the MAN, the life lived, the great American Ronald Reagan and yes much of the Reagan Revolution. BTW the Reagan diaries contain Reagans own remorseful thoughts on the tragedy in Lebanon, is Reagan wrong to doubt Reagan? What are you asking, for jingoist devotion beforehand to a question on Reagan? I would not offer such a promise to Mr. Madison, Henry or Jefferson, would you?

I havent read all the attacks posted on the figures cited above by Pauls inner circle so instead of me responding to this ad hominem why dont you quote a few during our thrill packed, enlightening A League radio debate and I will decide then and there.

By the way Mr. Levin, I rarely delete comments on my FaceBook page and no, I do not accept commentary from unregistered members, that is my choice but the entire planet is free to comment on the Mike Church Show Fan Page which carries identical posts, so whats your point? This in addition to the hundreds of e-mails and facebook comments I received today charging YOU of the very action you so piously claim to loathe here. How about a quid pro quo Mr. Levin, my Fan page is public and open for business, there are pro-Mark Levin comments on it now. How about it?

We are debating, you idiot, that’s what this back and forth is about. But I won’t help you build your little radio audience by raising you up to the level of the big leagues. Just try and focus and respond coherently to the points I’ve raised. You’re getting boring fast, you moron.

My what a splendid vocabulary you bring to to the end of our wonderful lesson together! One would think that those casting about as scholars, authors and Great Ones would find it beneath them to stoop to name calling. You should read the great debate of two actual scholars, Harry Jaffa and M.E. Bradford (The Heresy of Equality) and perhaps use the gentleman like salutations they used instead of trolling late night Comedy Central for pejorative neologisms.

In closing, I will trust the judgement of an enquiring world as to the Big league worthiness of my responses contained herein and trust their judgement will be fair and based on an actual reading of the proceedings. The offer to debate like gentlemen, on-air, in person, any time, any place remains, Kind Sir, as do I.

Your eternal admirer,

Mike Church

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Host of the Mike Church Show on The Veritas Radio Network's CRUSADE Channel & Founder of the Veritas Radio Network. Formerly, of Sirius/XM's Patriot channel 125. The show began in March of 2003 exclusively on Sirius and remains "the longest running radio talk show in satellite radio history".

Written by: TheKingDude

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Levin’s sucking up to the tyrant Lincoln makes a true patriot want to puke. Apparently his dad wrote a book idolizing the great corporate bag man

KrisAnne Hall

This is awesome. As a trained advocate Levin ought to be ashamed of himself. But as an attorney I am quick to recognize when someone is so insecure in their position that they have to resort to name calling, they have admitted your argument is superior and they have no reasoned response. I particularly laughed at the part where Levin criticized for blocking comments! What a hypocrite! I am a Constitutional attorney who writes on original intent. I’ve made one post in my life on Levin’s Facebook page regarding Art. V and Nullification. My post was down in less than 3 minutes and I was blocked from all further commenting. I didn’t use any language that Levin is so fond of. Thank you for being professional, reasoned, and respectful in your argument. I wonder if Levin worshippers realize that when he speaks like that he is not being disrespectful to his “opponent,” he is being disrespectful to THEM. No worries. Truth will prevail. Light will be shined. Only those steeped in lies, and living in the dark respond violently to their appearance. Liberty First!


I have noticed also his very highly expressed views of another book deal on “The Liberty Amendments”. Mr. Levin is no authoritarian on this subject but, he is trying. I must admit he probably listens to you Mike and justifies it as his own. Just saying. I used to listen to him and found his ego just a little obnoxious. But then again what would I know being a little leaguer. Just keep doing what you do Mike and maybe just maybe he will come off that loft from which perches and will join the “little r” circuit.


I just ran across this post again while reading some other content. It is funny that lately Mr. Levin seems to have adopted must of what Mike Church has talked about for years. His book “The Liberty Amendments” (especially the parts about the Article V convention) appears to be from the viewpoint of a Mike Church devotee. Of course, he will never admit that he may have been wrong about some things and that a “minor leaguer” like Mike Church was right.

Actually, I am a fan of Levin as a writer. I’ve agreed with most of the content of his books. I diverge when it comes to the cult of personality (his Lincoln worship, reverence for Teddy Roosevelt and even for Reagan t0 the point where nothing the man did can be questioned) and his allegiance to certain government institutions as sacro-sanct (the military, for example, is not capable of wasting money and making poor decisions in Levin’s world). I am a member of the Mike Church page on Facebook and was, at that time, a member of the Mark Levin Show page. When I defended Church from the uncritical lemmings on that message board, I was removed from the Facebook group. It was truly funny as Levin was in the midst of accusing the Mike Church page of not allowing dissent.

I truly think Levin has emerged from the shadows and actually does take on the GOP establishment quite often. It is a shame his ego makes it hard for him to acknowledge the wisdom in the words and writings of those who he deems as inferior EVEN when they are largely in agreement on certain principles. The desire to be “right” causes him to lash out viciously at folks who need not be enemies. Ironically, his tactics and presentation are too often like the MSNBC troglodytes he criticizes.


Levin is a jackass.

Dan Sullivan


Illegitimi non carborundum!!

Methinks he doth protest too much…what a fraud!

You’re the indispensable voice, keep up the great work!

Ex fide fortis,

Dan Sullivan


Great stuff from the King Dude. Levin always sinks to nastiness. I don’t understand why Levin has such a large audience other than the “cramdown” method of distributing his show. Thankfully we have Church and some others who are trying to deprogram anyone who will listen from the cult of Lincoln, revisionist history, and neoconservatism in general. We can’t change the “minds” of the Levins of this world but we can wake up a few along the way.


Mark levin is absolutely brilliant I love him!!!!!


Your rebuttal to Mr Levin was well thought out, concise, excellent, and elegant. But then I have come to expect no less from you in the few years since I have discovered your broadcast.

I have always wondered why Mr Levin, and others, (Mr. Beck, and Mr. O’Reilly) have had such disdain for Mr. Ron Paul. I also, can not figure out why they thought Lincoln was such a great man and President. After all he (Mr. Levin) is far more learned than I. I have only been studying American history for about 5 years now, and have had to change many of my opinions, and beliefs when presented with the historical records. Why is it that the [R]epublicans/Neocons cannot?

Having purchased, and read many of Mr. Levin’s books it never ceases to amaze me how hateful he is on his show. He will not debate or carry on a civil conversation with anyone who seems to exhibit the [r]epublican philosophy, only those who are in lock-step with his views, and opinions.

You, on the other hand, Mr. Church consistently entertain others that have opposing views in a respectful congenial manner. At least as long as they treat you with the same respect. This is one of the many reasons I have come to appreciate you and your show so much.

Keep up the outstanding work.

God bless you and your family.

Very Best Regards,
John L. Neel


This is exactly the reason I stopped listening to Levin.

Wil Shrader Jr.

He is so hateful.

Jason Bienia

I’m sorry that you and I have to deal with that type of support in our effort to save our country.
I feel more sorry for myself and the others who are not as knowledgeable as you, and are less able to stand up to the decepticons who are not helping us, but are diluting our efforts.
Thanks for inpiring me to learn more for myself about these life altering issues so that I can be better equipped to inspire those with less closed minds who are looking to restore our proper union.
Jason from NC, “r”epublican


Damn. I’ve read some of Levin’s books, and tend to agree with him on many matters. But in this, he comes across as petty, elitist, and, heaven help us, intolerant. For shame, mr. Levin.


Never could get the Likes of Rush and Mark Levin..Now that the Plank has been removed
from my eyes..I do quite understand, why. You Know Our History, and This is what it is about,
The history of why America came to be, Our Founders, Our Independence, Our Constitution.
Thank You, you are a great historian. I must listen daily, gaining much more knowledge and wisdom
from you than a whole list of others!!
Thank You!! God Bless!!

so cheney

I’m incredibly disappointed in Mark Levin’s condescending tone. I thought he was better than this.

Mike, way to conduct yourself as a gentleman in the face of this elitist boor.

As for me? I will continue to tune in to Sirius channel 125 from 6 to 9. Ante Meridian only.

So cheney


Like McCain and Graham, when these big tent Republicans get backed in to a corner, they get nasty.


Wow, claiming that more sheep flock to him than men to you Mike is quite funny!

Michael K. Wilcox

Mr. Levin shows his elitism once again, as well as his lack of ability to gentlemanly discuss issues. As per usual, he resorts to personal attacks. This elitism is a shield use in an attempt to hide is lack of intellectual honesty. As for his comment on cowardice, making unhinged comments and personal attacks on Facebook, in lieu of an on air or face to face debate is true cowardice. If Mr. Levin were so convinced of his intellectual and historic superiority, he would take Mr. Church’s offer for a real debate, however, I have no doubt he will ever have the courage to do so.



Enjoy listening to you everyday as I begin work to see a large portion of my earnings taken away by the government. You give me hope that there are still patriots out there that believe in Freedom.

My wife and I are avid Ron Paul supporters. I’ve listened to Mark Levin and have even called into his show – he reminds me so much of the Lyndsey Graham’s and McCain’s.

If he’s in the big leagues how come all of his advertisers are and Goldline? For his “millions” of listeners – he really can’t get the major league advertisers.

Keep up the good work. You, Webb and Wilcow are awesome!

Norm Bellerive

It appears to me that the big R-epublicans are having a tough time accepting that their self-destruction is nearly complete, and choices about the future lie in the acceptance of the current progressivism or a return to (r)republican ideals. It is inspiring to see young people espousing the latter, and blowhards like ML wouldn’t know a conservative if one came up and smacked him in the face. Keep up the good fight king dude! I find that when guys like you and Rand speak, school is “in session”.

Jeff Lewis

Why now Mike?
Disappointed in The Great One’s comments. I enjoy listening to him, but I do find him a lil’ touchy, all to often unwilling to acknowledge anything if it’s not agreeable with his Reaganite doctrine. He does have a yankee elitist mentality.
Learned much from listening to both of you! Liked your response. Classic gentleman. I think it would do him good to get a founders pass subscription, or get any of your many great productions.

Yours In Liberty,


Mickey Ellison

Thanks for posting. The difference between us, r and R republicans becomes more obvious every day

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